by 
An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University
Oral History Program Series: Governance Traps
Interview no.: D13
Interviewee: Bola Tinubu
Interviewer: Graeme Blair
Date of Interview: 7 August, 2009
Location: Lagos
Nigeria
Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice
Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties
BLAIR: This is Graeme Blair; I am here for an interview for Princeton University with His Excellency the former Governor Mr. [Bola] Tinubu. Thank you very much for agreeing to speak with us.
TINUBU: You’re very welcome, it’s a pleasure.
BLAIR: You initiated many reforms during your tenure. I wonder if you could begin by telling me which you think were the most important, the ones that had the most impact on people or opened up the window for further reforms.
TINUBU: First and foremost, when I became governor-elect, I assembled the best brains that I know of because of my previous training. I was trained by Deloitte Touche, formerly Deloitte, Haskins and Sells in Chicago, out of the Illinois practice office, before I joined Mobil. Corporate governance is essentially a great element in public sector management and governance. You have to take a critical evaluation of what is on the ground-what is the situation on the ground. What are those long-term, medium-term, and short-term gains that can unleash the prosperity of the state. Thinking for change is quite extremely important for such a research-oriented administration. So thinking for change was my mode and my philosophy. Now it can look-there was tremendous decay in the infrastructure: traffic, chaos, unmanageable. Levels of solid waste management requirement that is becoming epidemic for the state, and the state going bust with population; completely disorganized transportation system; disintegrated infrastructure and near bankruptcy; perilous financial situation that required reengineering. Antiquated accounting system, lack of transparency. It is a two-engine approach.
BLAIR: Before we talk about some of the specific changes, I’d like to focus on how you built support for these fairly major and expensive changes which can often be difficult in many circumstances.
TINUBU: It was very, very difficult. People ordinarily were not responsive to change. Status quo. But the heart of change is within the thinker. Ability to communicate and translate it into ideas. First of all, lay before the public the true position of the state. Then address the workers and streamline the bureaucracy itself. If you don’t have a good internal workforce working along with the chief of the administrator that is bringing-, you will not have an accelerated response and symbol to the people. And communication to the citizenry is not enough as showing them an example of what, for example, a road, a street should look like. If you want a good school building, out of frustration you build a good school, you let them see it, we can do this together; this is a partnership if you respond to the change that they are looking for.
One, financial engineering of the state that is the commercial center of the country. Constrained with population drift, serious one. Constrained again with a debt asset known as land, and which is the smallest among all the states in the country but with unlimited potential for prosperity. So after the transition group put their recommendations together, it was necessary to develop an agenda from their recommendations. That is when I assembled the best brains and people of integrity to the cabinet to work with me, particularly finance. Legal, that is administration of justice, budgetary process, information system-there was no assistant at that particular time. Created ministries that were needed, various government agencies that I needed, new agencies. I broke some of the […] over webbed government agencies that were called ministry to a manageable and compact environment to start to work the system.
From there we set the ten-point agenda for the administration, in the short-term; what we see as lower-hanging fruit, the education system that was completely decayed and moved from hope to hopelessness-believing that we must invest in the future of our state and the country if we are to work for the transformation that would be long-term. Education is the greatest weapon against poverty. But if you just talk about it and fail to invest in it you have problems. The schools were collapsing and killing children and pupils, parents in agony. The public school was completely abandoned over the years of military regime.
You have hills, what I would describe as hills or mountains of refuse, solid waste, uncleared. Roads were taken over. Tremendous man-hours, productive hours spent in the traffic, chaotic traffic situation and indiscipline in the driving system in the country. Land system not accounted for. No accountability whatsoever. Financial statement of seven years not done. The state was running consistently on overdraft, not able to meet its obligations over a bloated payroll system that you could not even identify which workers and which way to do. The problem could have been very overwhelming, but I had a very great team of men and women of strong determination. We had reviews, several times reviews of that agenda, and we developed this system.
First, sustain work force: fail to create additional poverty, or not to sack people first. Look at the system. Tackle the refuse problem. Gradually convert the dead assets, that is the land possession of the people, into valuable means of prosperity for the state. Then, creative means of improving the revenue base to take the state out of bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy was very prominent in my-. The working environment, a time of manual and tedious filing system, missing documentation, untraceable documentation, a humungous bureaucracy that has created elephantiasis-a disease called elephantiasis-for progress of the state. It was very, very challenging. But we confronted it.
To identify that we needed to be creative and be proactive while we were trying to remove the refuse. The planning period was very, very critical. In the time of wars back then, critical path analysis of what it is that you must do to survive- that was built in the long-term plan of sustainable growth. And we collaborated with the private sector as the engine of growth in the economy of Lagos as well. No investor would come into the state unless we had an effective security, not direct for an investment. What happened, this is being prevalent in this place. I can go on and on in this myriad of problems, a complex situation, can break it into manageable components. Reengineering of the financial system, reinventing governance such that it is a two-engine approach.
If you build a good road where you have pedestrian walkways, where it is durable, where you have streetlights-gradually people will respond and want it in their communities. If you are transferring it as the government was, then yes, it will get easily very serious and cumbersome and time-consuming, but it works.
BLAIR: What were some of the other ways that you showed people what change looked like?
TINUBU: Vigorously being involved in public evacuation of the refuse, the discipline of the workers. Gradually introduced those changes that are necessary to control the refuse. You cannot ask them not to throw their garbage on the street if you don’t provide alternative and efficient evacuation means. Rehabilitation of the compactors, and buying new ones, and partnering with suppliers. I remember, early in the administration, we had a huge flood where I had to summon all the dredgers in the state to volunteer some hours of dredging for the benefit of the state, because we cannot afford to pay. They responded positively. I said, “This is your state.”
BLAIR: What were some of the other ways-one of the problems you pointed to which other people talk about is finding a way to motivate workers in the civil service to get them on the team. What were some of the incentives and techniques you used to get there?
TINUBU: Understand, I saw the fact that one, there was indiscipline. There was also a great deal then of dishonesty. There was lack of accountability, corruption, not seeing themselves as agents of growth, not seeing themselves as true servants of the people, not recognizing the fact that the population expects much from them and they must be treated as a customer in the business of governance. If you are rude to the public, how do you expect them to respond to your need positively? Without serving that need, if you create corruption, challenge of corruption by missing files and getting money to even extract land information, how do you expect the public to pay the taxes that will improve you over time. You can’t complain of lack of good pay, lack of good working environment, if you are not even changing yourself.
You first of all change, let the interaction be positive with the public. Now the land as a source of prosperity; you have certificates of occupancy, which is the land title system that was non-existent. Not just because it was a […]; it doesn’t exist. You have a fraud-vested web of land documentation. It could take five-a study was conducted, you find forged titles. It could take five years to even get a title processed for a land transaction.
The survey department had no instrument, and you charged the public as part of the survey. You charged the public as capital contribution for the development of those areas, and you didn’t account for it, you failed to account for it as a government. You come in good all this transaction, no right to create a fraud of web, one. You strip everything into revenue. You forget you owe to the public that promise of serving, that we serve, you check them already. They pay in advance for it. They are your customers. They require the shortest time delivery of the service they’ve paid for. So all of that, we now are back up on full-blown computerization of the system, knowing that we have the workers. They resisted initially. Telling them that it is only for their own benefit, and with information technology their children would never, never be wanting again.
Tie all of those, what vision I took to their family. How fast they would get them back to their family, improve their incentive, accountability, friendly work environment. Those of you who have to travel far away to even see your children might be able to communicate in the future with Facebook, e-mail and others. Telling them it is not for the government alone for them to learn how to use computers. But it is for their family, it is for their welfare.
BLAIR: So when you’re communicating this kind of thing to the workers, you were going around and ministers were going around?
TINUBU: Yes.
BLAIR: So there was a plan?
TINUBU: There was a plan. Sometimes we bring them together, sometimes we go around. Then show them samples, serious presentations. See them as partners. That’s in a confused state of anomy and despondency to break the whole-the old habit developed through long period of military dictatorship. That’s a problem: lack of competitiveness. It is very tough to describe, but the challenge was seen as an opportunity to impact human development and the workers and the way we did it. We brought computer experts to talk to them. I went to IBM, visited Oracle in the United States and Microsoft to look at which one would be a better database for the public sector accounting. Eventually we settled for Oracle and started developing some various other software on the database.
The payroll: to eliminate fake workers and change the payroll system was very, very challenging to equally account for those survey charges-let me take it to the micro level for a minute-was very, very challenging. For them to understand what my biometric system means to workers’ ID, and you have to go to the bank: no more cash payments, no longer I commingle, non-accountable payroll system. But when they saw that the savings would become beneficial to their own need for better salary and better working conditions, they started responding.
I know in the civil service, I can recall the civil service test run of the payroll, and we eliminated thousands of ghost workers. We made it clear to them that, look, this is all that every one of you could share. Only a very few people, fraudulent people, are taking it home pretending you have no money. Two hundred and sixty-something million in a month are regular pay workers. So we moved to a detection section where 7 of 451 hundred million naira in a month, eliminated ghost workers. By the time we finished with the local government and other workforce we were saving close to 600 million out of a payroll of 1.2 [billion]. So you see, close to 50%-more than 50% is subject of fraud and mismanagement of the payroll.
The budgetary system is another issue. They were very, very critical to the management of the resources. So the ministry didn’t assist to set control mechanisms between the treasury activities and finance and disbursement, from budget and internal control that we stand as due process. So they were separated. They used to-we have a ministry for budget and economic planning, separate from ministry of finance. So that internal control mechanism too was working. The tenders have transferred it because the man in charge of the budget and planning is a member, or the chairman of the budget tenders’ board.
The payroll: to eliminate fake workers and change the payroll system was very, very challenging to equally account for those survey charges-let me take it to the micro level for a minute-was very, very challenging. For them to understand what my biometric system means to workers’ ID, and you have to go to the bank: no more cash payments, no longer I commingle, non-accountable payroll system. But when they saw that the savings would become beneficial to their own need for better salary and better working conditions, they started responding.
I know in the civil service, I can recall the civil service test run of the payroll, and we eliminated thousands of ghost workers. We made it clear to them that, look, this is all that every one of you could share. Only a very few people, fraudulent people, are taking it home pretending you have no money. Two hundred and sixty-something million in a month are regular pay workers. So we moved to a detection section where 7 of 451 hundred million naira in a month, eliminated ghost workers. By the time we finished with the local government and other workforce we were saving close to 600 million out of a payroll of 1.2 [billion]. So you see, close to 50%-more than 50% is subject of fraud and mismanagement of the payroll.
The payroll: to eliminate fake workers and change the payroll system was very, very challenging to equally account for those survey charges-let me take it to the micro level for a minute-was very, very challenging. For them to understand what my biometric system means to workers’ ID, and you have to go to the bank: no more cash payments, no longer I commingle, non-accountable payroll system. But when they saw that the savings would become beneficial to their own need for better salary and better working conditions, they started responding.
I know in the civil service, I can recall the civil service test run of the payroll, and we eliminated thousands of ghost workers. We made it clear to them that, look, this is all that every one of you could share. Only a very few people, fraudulent people, are taking it home pretending you have no money. Two hundred and sixty-something million in a month are regular pay workers. So we moved to a detection section where 7 of 451 hundred million naira in a month, eliminated ghost workers. By the time we finished with the local government and other workforce we were saving close to 600 million out of a payroll of 1.2 [billion]. So you see, close to 50%-more than 50% is subject of fraud and mismanagement of the payroll.
The budgetary system is another issue. They were very, very critical to the management of the resources. So the ministry didn’t assist to set control mechanisms between the treasury activities and finance and disbursement, from budget and internal control that we stand as due process. So they were separated. They used to-we have a ministry for budget and economic planning, separate from ministry of finance. So that internal control mechanism too was working. The tenders have transferred it because the man in charge of the budget and planning is a member, or the chairman of the budget tenders’ board.
BLAIR: Going back for one second. You mentioned some changes to incentives for civil service. What were some of those changes?
TINUBU: First, increase payroll: rolling back those savings into increase in salary and allowances for them. Assisting them to develop interest in the financial market as a whole. Driving them to a savings that will be beneficial to their future. We had floated a bond-that’s a different story-for infrastructure. I asked them to see the magic of long-term investment and the return that will come from the interest rates, which is tax-free element of return. I asked them to take small trenches in it, and I’ve given them the loan to back it up, interest-free loan. When they saw the return monthly and quarterly return from the bonds and where the principal is still guaranteed, they were delighted, they were surprised, it was never done before. So this is the reward for them responding positively. Their living conditions, their office renovation, the congested office space, lack of hygiene in the toilets and so forth, the working environment-you can’t imagine what it was some nine years ago with refuse all over the place.
I see their parents today-you see the permanent secretary, we had a nametag to say, look, the public must know your name. You are high up in the management; you are professionals, you have brokerages, if you go to many organizations they will see you. Now create your ID card, they might not touch your ID card-you wear the nametag so that if they will report any mistakes, bribery, they will know whom to report. Oh, they sort of-positively the foundation building of the state.
BLAIR: From the time when you came into office until when you left, how do you think the attitudes and the energy of the civil service changed?
TINUBU: Tripled energy. Good transportation system. The state partnering with the politicians as the most important positive, that can positively impact their life. There is compassion, I respond to their needs regularly. I have evaluated their needs. I had one-on-one discussion with some of them. I have a mailbox where they can privately communicate with me until they know how to use the e-mail system.
The land, some of them started telling me, thank you governor. Now I can communicate with my son in America, my son in the UK, my son in Canada, on the island. When the consolidation of the banks was going on and the financial institutions, I encouraged them to invest. I introduced a home ownership scheme with long-term payroll deduction. See them-they see themselves as-.
Eliminate corruption in the judiciary, public administration. The judiciary system was headed by a lawyer, respected, civil professor of law who changed that around. I just need to-when I saw the condition of our courts I was close to tears. Big rats, no organized filing system, tedious writing, not motivated, no vehicles, no cars, no housing. If you want a judge not to be corrupt, you have to build a sincere incentive and package. They see their career on the bench as a rewarding future, not as a road leading to nowhere. If you want foreign direct investment, an investor will first of all look at your administration of justice. If I am going to invest in this environment, can I come in easily and get out easily? Am I protected by the local law? How will I be protected? Will I have to go through a corrupt system or an efficient system?
We introduced: all judges must have their own car supported by a government. They must have their own home to retire to-the home ownership scheme was started. We must build new courtrooms, as modern, and introduce them to information technology to make their job easier. They should be able to take a laptop home and write their judgments. They can digitally record court proceedings, not with longhand all the time. It worked like magic. It eliminated corruption. Positive end, productivity level impactful, revenue of the state enhanced. The road map to recovery was very clear at that stage. Then the new tax regime.
BLAIR: Right.
TINUBU: Bring in knowledge-based innovation. A ministry of science and technology, a ministry of finance, partnering with outside consultants to develop software that we sought for an effective tax administration, effective accountability, innovation for prosperity. Bring in energy consultants, knowledge-based science and technology. Because revenue receipt of the government is fudged all over the place. Within one week. No matter what level, hologram or monogram you put on it, it has a printer somewhere, and not many people will look at those things. So if you have to put a control in place, it would be effective.
Now, you cannot do it without building the control mechanism of verifying support. Otherwise it becomes garbage, in garbage out: collusion. So you must be ready to give something up. So when we set up the tax table, as we introduced technology, we brought some other banks to meet with our consultant. The banks now have to respond to the needs of the consultants. If you want to do business with Lagos state, you have to go on the SWIFT system. That you must be able, as governor, must be able to sit in my office as the commissioner for finance-must be able to sit in the office and track the payments to the bank. No more cash payments to government. So for that we were ready to give up, say, 50% to the consultant to collect and institute-introduce controls.
So revenue that was 600 million a month grew phenomenally to 2 billion, 3 billion, 4 billion, 5 billion, and it was fluctuating between ten, sometimes a bad month you have eight, before I left office. That is the story of the financial recovery of the state.
BLAIR: That is an amazing story.
TINUBU: It was an amazing story.
BLAIR: I am conscious of your time, do you mind if we continue?
TINUBU: Go ahead.
BLAIR: One of the things that we’re interested in is, what some of the political challenges are to getting this work done. What was the political coalition that you put together? Who did you count on for support politically?
TINUBU: Then?
BLAIR: Yes.
TINUBU: The public who elected me, first. The group who understands me and the cabinet. Asking them not to expect up front, not to expect patronage in the form of corruption. We would credit their work. If you are competent, they have the employment. We will bring the image of labor back. Unemployed youths who are drafted to become traffic coordinators like LMATS, Lagos Metropolitan Authority Transport System. Brain drain was being turned to brain gain by bringing in some of our well-trained individuals back home from overseas to look into our transport system, LAMATA, that is there today, Dr. Mobereola used to work for the London Bureau of Transportation. The man [Shayo)] Holloway in the Water Corporation used to work for the water-I think, company-in Illinois; now he is there. Bringing back home some of those medical doctors, and I mean the ex-sector. Our hospital was a death clinic. Nothing to be described as a hospital in the health scheme program, part of which had a problem. Today I am very, very proud of what is available to the public, and the healthcare scheme that we introduced in this state was equally an asset of value.
BLAIR: One of the things people talk about is the difficult relationship with the federal government during your tenure. How would you describe the relationship with the federal government and how you worked on that relationship?
TINUBU: You have a constitutional democracy and a federal system of government, and there’s a constitution. Unfortunately, you have a president who had governed as a military dictator. They say old habits die hard, and I believe in the federalism, and that’s the principle of federalism. I believe in the federalist constitution written by Jefferson and the American system. Each area of complaint, I wanted the president to see me as an autonomous state, freely elected to govern my state, a state that has given, a state that has surrendered some of its powers to the federal to administer-not to be a military administrator or a representative of the president-may declare from the one, and that is the area of conflict. There is an overlap and cumbersome process, and the president wanting to laud his view over us in the Council of State of National Economic Council, raised issues.
But I headed for court several times to challenge over […] portion of the government. How can I seek approval before I plan my state? The planning approval of the state road, the plan approval for real estate development is a serious matter. I went to the Supreme Court and challenged several unconstitutional habits of the federal government. Use a civilized manner to correct the anomalies which impeach-a previous military officer would not see as positive, not as a matter of principle, from the man who sees it as confrontational, but I didn’t care. I was not intimidated, I was just focused seriously on what I need to do for the state and communicated this effectively with the citizens.
BLAIR: What are some of the ways that they were able to stymie the work that you were doing? Was it through funding or-?
TINUBU: It was through funding, sometimes-the irony of it is, so much-. We’re kind of at the story today, not much over time, but the inhibition of approval over deduction of what is even classified as old debts. I brought independent power generating ideas, saying that the most important discovery for humanity in the last 1000 years is electricity, and we must start to tackle the question of electricity. But what have they done in other countries. I consulted with the corporate council on America, in the United States, and as for their needs used my contact with my old colleagues in Deloitte to help me look into means of creating an independent pass which was linked to badges that were being used in the Philippines, pending the activation and commissioning of their nuclear power program. I brought the idea, broke it down to management and the micro level. The impact on the barbershop, creating private employment, creating small-scale business, the need for little capital, exponential effect that we would have on our economy, have on the quality of life, to the president.
Strong determination to ensure that it was done. They killed the idea to some extent, but I was able to salvage about one third of the projects to show a model of 270 megawatts of independent power generation. It worked, even though they fought it initially. If they had allowed it, larger portion of the program, Nigeria would have somewhat to recover the shortage of electricity. But they allowed the 270 megawatts, and instead of allowing it to be dedicated to the industry and the people of Lagos State, they now deliver the generated electricity to national grid and they are charging Lagos State revenue 250 million-it is like a toll gate to nowhere, and I still pay for consumption. We just resolved the matter in court now. It is such a disincentive, so discouraging. Now they’ve gone back to this IPP Model.
BLAIR: So you think the relationship has now improved between the Lagos government and the-?
TINUBU: I think now it is better than before.
BLAIR: Do you thing that is a personality thing or something more?
TINUBU: It is both personality and political. It’s political, because we have a party of opposition in Lagos, not one of the […] political party. This is a progressive state; we go for a progressive democratic principle any time, and the overlay, known ideological party of-you can’t describe them as even conservative. Conservative as an economic focus of ideological, private-sector-driven philosophy, so I don’t know what ideology they are for their party, and that’s why I am not able to remember their party. So they wanted to-. Lagos is like the yolk. If you don’t win this state, your political achievement is not crystallized; it’s next to nothing.
BLAIR: So you think they decided that if they kept obstructing things, that they would-.
TINUBU: That’s it. We’ll assist in that.
BLAIR: Tell me about the decision to go outside of the political class and go inside your own staff in choosing the next governor. What made you do that?
TINUBU: I remember noting, part of quality of leadership is the ability to develop a successor. Break […] the symbolic legacy of an achiever and a leader. But sustenance of the program, long-term recovery and prosperity of the state is more important than those […] So, after laying a very strong foundation for infrastructural development, the transformation of Lagos State, the financial reengineering, the focused vision for change, you have to look for a successor who can actualize so many dreams, so many ideas, and build from there-opened the difficulty of the past, too, with the government, with the ease of-, and create a conducive environment for an accelerated transformation achievement of the state.
It’s very, very difficult; it needs an assigned person, that can be highly disciplined, highly focused, who understands me, the vision for Lagos-and, you’ll find, incorruptible, that wants to build the system. It can collapse easily if you don’t have a strong, dependable integrity; strongly focused individual that could be tried and tested in known, certain assignments that have given to so many of them. Fashola, he joined the administration five years before as my chief of staff. I evaluated the same work. So the greatest achievement of a leader, I believe, is the ability to build and develop other managers and a good successor that would take the entity beyond the level of ordinary thinking, would combine the thinking and the dream.
BLAIR: Was it challenging to convince others in the party?
TINUBU: It was very challenging, it was chaotic. It was crisis, a huge crisis. There were newspaper explosions and so on and so forth. But I stuck to my guns.
BLAIR: How did you go about convincing them?
TINUBU: I just told them, that is the person who will actualize the dream. What are they looking for? If they’re looking for the progress of the state, if they’re not just looking for a selfish person to control-and these are the qualities of this candidate. This is the person that I believe in, and yes, the rest can do the job, but I give them the caption, one-line caption: the best man for the job is what I’m looking for. Everybody else, yes, is a captain, but this is an exceptional pilot, navigator, driver.
BLAIR: Were there other initiatives to ensure that there would be continuity and sustainability for the initiatives?
TINUBU: Oh, yes, we agree, it was part of the agenda. We have to-do lists, comprehensively in the executive council for that. There is no program that we embarked upon that has not been debated and thought through as a matter of prioritizing. Progress in the […] of the executive is documented on what is arising, and that is what we review first in the […] We are aware what about this project, what about that project, what about these ongoing-where are we, what is the result? Before we are coming back upon yo,u you have limited resources. Time is the enemy of mankind. It is the most valuable asset to humanity, but you would never have enough of it.
BLAIR: Did you play a role after his inauguration or now? Some people say you are the political minder while he is getting things done?
TINUBU: We set a model. We set a model. I know what I went through. For example, I had to return a mission school. That was taken over by Fair Act, the Catholic school, the Baptist, all of them. It was shocking to the Muslim community. As a Muslim to want to return these schools to the missions that had been taken over. It was one of the toughest decisions of my administration to really convince the public why we must […] a competitive environment. The mission must be allowed to work on their schools, we can’t say public schools. We will build our own if you like, take your own back as a community. It was tough. My parents nearly disowned me at this stage. I almost lost support.
After they were convinced, that support, that was a tremendous amount of support. They see the wisdom, they see the value. If you go to those schools today you’d be proud, I am proud I did it, created a competitive environment, great standard for education and so forth. So since I went through so many political conflicts, and here is a private-sector-oriented technocrat, mixing politics and job would slow him down, definitely. So we built a model that he should focus purely on the job, driving tradition, transformation program, building on those foundations. I will take care of the political nuances and conflicts that will help to release his time, because time is the most valuable asset, like I say. You would never have a […]
BLAIR: So what is this, on a day-to-day basis, what does this mean your role looks like, what kinds of things are-?
TINUBU: Politics. See the people, see to their complaints, political complaints, some of the political agendas. I don’t interfere in his day-to-day running unless I am called upon to-but, for example, if there is a crisis of a strike or something, I can step in easily, because they know my face more than his before. I’ve been in the political struggle for a longer period of time, before he joined-you know, I dragged-more or less I dragged him into it.
BLAIR: What are some of the examples of some of the things you have intervened in or helped with?
TINUBU: Taxi drivers’ strike conflicts, teachers’ union conflicts, market-woman complaints in general, some of the tax introductions I graduated to the system. For them to have an understanding of what it means to pay taxes and be a responsible citizen, this is why everybody must pay. There shouldn’t be an exception for “big guys,” so on and so forth.
BLAIR: So with the introduction of taxes, you go and speak to political elites, important people?
TINUBU: Yes, they have gotten used to those challenges, but still, really, no one wants to-Uncle Sam in America has the liberty to pay. Of all the liberal laws in the United States, you are deemed to be innocent until you are proven guilty of any crime, but in the tax law in the US you are guilty unless you prove yourself innocent, you are suspected. So, see the value of taxation to a developed society. Anybody will resist. It becomes a campaign issue in US and everything. You have to do it here gradually.
BLAIR: I’m sure you don’t want to speak about the particular details of negotiations, but when you’re with an issue with the taxi drivers’ strike or teachers’ unions, what kind of role do you play? What kinds of people are you interacting with? What are their-?
TINUBU: Their leadership and some of their members.
BLAIR: And your role is an intermediary between them and the government?
TINUBU: Yes, and the government.
BLAIR: And so are you interacting with the governor or ministers?
TINUBU: I interact with the governor.
BLAIR: So you would go and have a meeting with union leadership, and then go and speak to the governor?
TINUBU: Yes, without making any commitment for them, not to maintain rigid positions: have an understanding of the states and the need for the states, have an understanding for the need, say, for the cab drivers, have an understanding for the needs for, say, the teachers’ union, asking for pay increase. Have them understand federalism better.
BLAIR: So it is kind of an arbitrator. Well, I’m conscious of your time. I really appreciate how generously you’ve given it. So thank you very much.
TINUBU: Do you have anything left? What other critical area do you think you might be missing?
BLAIR: I guess if you were giving advice to someone coming into a position like yours, coming out of a military dictatorship or in a position where government institutions need to be rebuilt from step one-.
TINUBU: From scratch.
BLAIR: From scratch. What kinds of things challenged you that you have learned from, that you would tell other leaders coming in to a position like yours?
TINUBU: The sincerity of purpose, building an understanding. Arm yourself with knowledge of the constitution. You are continuously a student as well as a leader. Looking at politics not as a personal enterprise but a public enterprise. You are among the beneficiaries of that enterprise. Seeing service and commitment as the goal. We can’t say we are looking for a nation and don’t believe that other political rivals will not want to interfere, but be prepared for negative interference and criticism; be focused.
BLAIR: I think it is fair to say other people will be interested in this model that you have created with the current governor. Do you have advice for people who would like to build something like that?
TINUBU: No, I do talk to them, I do advise them and ask them: they have to understand to let go of power. You see, it does catch you. It is infectious. It can be dangerous if you don’t have a good understanding of management. Yes, it is not served a la carte. You have to have a constant struggle and protection of it, but you must let go at the time prescribed by the constitution: the rule of law, due process.
BLAIR: Do you think there are particularities of Lagos that have made your arrangement, where you’re doing the politics and the governor is doing the-that make it work?
TINUBU: We have an understanding, and that’s the peculiarity. We have a common philosophy, a common conviction, a common goal; that’s it. It is not peculiar to Lagos.
BLAIR: Would you judge it a success so far?
TINUBU: It is a big huge success-people are saying it. It is not distracted. They are seeing it manifest in their own-why should they doubt it? They fear they have evaporated.
BLAIR: I think that’s all of my questions. Thank you very much.
TINUBU: You’re welcome.
Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Governance Traps
Oral History Program Interview number: D-13
11
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Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties
